Tom,
We actually spoke about this before I think. Search the forum for: Boucher DZ
I think it's the same or similar to what you say. I'll email you some info.
Eric
-------------------------------------------
Thanks for the diagrams Eric. I had a little problem following them. We did discuss this in 2011.
Eric,
Thanks for your comments and the email.
I think I will start a new topic for this and paste these comments there.. We did have a good discussion on this topic http://www.hockeycoachingabcs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=1175 It may be what I am seeing some teams do to overload in the corner. I had trouble following the diagrams you sent me.
-----------------------------------
Trends in the game now that I would like to see discussed and clarified.
Rotation into the 1-3-1 Diamond PP.
Overload in the corner on the PK.
The 'Middle Drive'.
Attacking with 4 players.
How to backcheck the Middle Drive and also cover the D in on the rush as the fourth attacker.
The 'Fall Under' vs the 1-3-1. What is the best way to cover the offensive player in the middle and rotate to block the point and shots from the side.
Spread PP with players behind the net 5-3 AND 5-4. (one team in the Austrian league with a former CIS/AHL coach uses this with both a one and two man advantage and it is VERY effective. i.e. looks like 5 on the dice; 2-1-2)
Tom & Eric - These are all really interesting topics, and I'd love to hear/see them explained in more detail.
There are two things that really stand out to me in the NHL this year:
1) Use of the net-front defencemen on the breakout - I used to see Detroit do this a lot, and I thought they could get away with it with a guy like Lidstrom there and such great passers on their team, but now everyone uses this effectively.
2) Aggressive forecheck on the PK - It used to be that everyone just backed up and clogged the middle to prevent entry, now several teams are springing players when they are short-handed and pressuring the D if they don't connect on a stretch pass. I'd always read that players are too skilled at the top level to make this kind of pressure effective, and that these tactics only worked at the lower levels, but now quite a few teams are doing it.
Are these new trends, or am I just seeing the game differently? One final thought for discussion - beyond talent, what makes the Blackhawks so good? The way they use the whole ice and stretch the other teams D makes it look like they are playing a torpedo-like style more than any other team. They also seem to have way more rotation in the offensive zone than most teams do. Any thoughts?
Dave
-----------------------------------------
Dave, good to hear from you.
I agree that the game is becoming more aggressive. I think with teams overloading one side on both offense and defense when the puck is along the boards it leaves the player in front alone and safe to pass to.
I haven't seen the Blackhawks much but I did notice a lot of rotation on their power play. Last night the Predators rotated low players and totally lost the Flame defenders for tap in goals. I think you now have to stay with a player once you have him in the zone or he will be wide open.
Detroit has been aggressive an the pk forecheck for a long time. They were the first I saw overload the corner with 3 defenders and one on the dot when the puck is dumped in and the attackers back is turned. Now some teams are doing this on 5-5 with 4 deep in the corner and one the weak side player has net coverage.
I would love to hear a coach that uses these tactics explain them.
Teams are stretching one or two F's to the far blue line whenever they see the D can look up ice without too much pressure. It works well if the players are moving when they get the puck, otherwise they are outnumbered. At least the puck is out of the zone.
Another thing that Detroit started with all their Russian players was passing back to a moving player in the nzone to catch the defenders flat footed on the pplay. I am seeing this now when the defenders stack with a 1-2-2 in the nzone on 5-5 to gain the zone.
Some teams like Calgary are totally confused on how to cover the middle player on the 1-3-1 diamond power play and try to use the fall under and are always switching. Others simply have the defender checking the mid point drop down to that player when the puck is passed to the side.
The most sweeping change I have seen in the past few years is that the traditional triangle with F3 trailing is out he window and not F2 middle drives to the net and F1 and F3 are parallel behind F3 and if the backchecker doesn't pick up F3 he has a wide open net on the pass across or is in great positon to put in a pass off the goalies pad on a shot to the far side. D1 is now the trailer creating four on the attack.
Tom
I have been watching the dzone coverage carefully and just got back from the Flames-Blues game. Columbus overloads all of the time and has one of the best GA in the league.
When the offense is battling on the boards with their backs toward the boards the defenders overload. One defender on the puck, strong side F2 comes down, F1 creates a defensive 2-1 reading the battle from the dside, D2 covers a low rim and F3 has net coverage.
On the pk it is the same but F3 is near the face-off dot.
Flames changed the rotation up top and the F's held their sides much better and didn't chase passes nearly as much. Much more straight line skating.
---------------------------------------------------
What a difference when you skate straight lines and don't chase passes. Flames have corrected this in their pk and killed 5 or 6 vs. Chicago tonight and did the same vs. the Blues on Sunday. Dzone a lot more orgainized as well. Stayed with their men and no goals on passes from below the goal line.
Too bad they haven't been doing this all season. (I am a Flames season ticket holder)
Chicago does a great job of outnumbering the opposition on offense and defense and always attacking with four.
-------------------------------------------------
Last night game vs. Colorado. Flames were swarming early and only allowed 2 shots against in the first. They were protecting a 4-2 lead in the third and went into a passive shell. This resulted in two reaching penalties and a two man short that made it 4-3. They continued in the shell and held on with some great saves but played at least 15 of the 20 min. in their zone. (It was the first game of the post Iginla era for the Flames)
Why do teams do this (Canadian Jr.s blowing a 3 goal lead vs. Russia) instead of playing the same but making sure they don't try to win 1-1's or 1-2's at the blue lines.
That is my question of the day.
Question - how is a breakout done with 3 to 4 players on one side of the ice ? If I understand there would be strong side w , C and both D on stong side of ice with only the weak side w in front of the net , is this correct ? Are there any videos or diagrams of execution out there ?
----------------------------------------------------------
If the weak side forward is in front of the net then it is easy to break out. Pass directly to him or if the puck goes behind the net he would get on the boards and the other F would mirrot.
If you watch the NHL you will see a lot of teams doing this oveload. On the pk your see one F on the dot, the weak side D on or below the goal line to take away the pass behind or cover the supporting F and the strong side F down along the boards a few metres from the puck.
Anytime the attacker is digging a puck off the boards with the numbers facing the play most teams now overload.
Tom
SMAC
Getting the net d to go to the corner with young players may mess with the" 1 d should always be in front of the net "mantra that they have been told for many years I would think ? Have to get to think outside the box ?
I did a coaching clinic with Perry Pearn whern he was with the Rangers . They had a "code " word for the PK guys to overload to the corner from passive box .
SMAC
It all depends on how the attackers are forechecking.
A - 3 F's overload the strong side and create a 3 man cycle. If the D stays in front of the net then the attackers have a constant 3 on 2 and will get many chances to shoot. If the opposition attacks with 3 F on the strong side then the defenders must play 3-3 man to man and the weak side F has net coverage and still responsibility for the middle point.
B - I watched the Edmonton/Columbus game for about 15 minutes last night and it looked like the Oilers had a two man cycle on the puck side and a F on the weak side. In this case the weak side D has net front and covers their F3.
C - Some forechecks mobilize the D on a 3 man cycle on the strong side - the other D fills behind on the strong side and the weak side F covers the middle point. In this case both D must play the 3-3 on the strong side with the low F.
So in the case of Edmonton the low F and strong side D play a 2-2 low and the strong side F slide down to create a defensive 3-2 if the attackers back is to the play.
Agree or disagree????
Tom
Is there a coach out there who currently uses the swarm.
SMAC - That is a good question...here is what I have gathered.
I think the new school approach for the net front / weak side D is to play off the NEAR post with toes facing up ice to prevent passes coming across. This has the effect of reducing space on the side of the ice where the puck is and tightens up the layers of your D as D1, F1 & D2 are a lot closer to each other. It also allows the net-front D to quickly man-up on a 3 man offensive cycle / overload in the corner. The aggressive / overload D coverage along the boards that we're talking about happens when puck control is marginal and the puck carrier is forced to have his back to the scoring area. This allows the defenders to close in on the next possible passes more aggressively, and the F3 drops down into the net front area while staying in the shooting lane of the middle D.
I don't know how you would approach this with really young kids, but I think teaching the net front D to be off the NEAR post instead of the far post is a good starting point. This requires good habits (toes up ice, good stick position, and split vision), and also puts this player in good position to peel off the post quickly for D to D transitions, to join the rush on breakouts if F1 gets engaged below the goal line, and encourages good reaction to cycle plays originating in the corner. For the net-front D to jump in to the corner though he has to be able to recognize his one on one and keep D side positioning. If any of the 3 defenders chase the puck or lose d-side in that situation a skilled cycle team will beat them to the scoring area.
From my experience the real challenge in this style of coverage system falls on the forwards. If the offensive team is able to escape the heavy pressure of the overload D by moving the puck into the far corner of the ice, the defender F3 (now at net-front) becomes the closest defender to the puck and your forwards have to rotate and interchange appropriately, and so do D1, D2, and F3 (now pursuing the puck carrier.) There are a lot more defensive reads that can lead to rotations and communication must be good for these to happen. We worked on the reacting to cycle plays low in this manner this year and it helped, but our forwards did not do a great job of reacting to rotations (or I didn't do a good enough job teaching them!)
Does this make sense? I will try to find a visual somewhere to help if not.
Dave
-------------------------------------------------
Dave that makes sense. The only one to pass to on the other side is their middle D2 and F3 already is covering him. Do the rotations shouldn't be that hard. I watched the Flames-Blue Jackets last night and both teams were doing what you say and drifting to the strong side when a player didn't have good controll along the wall.
Tom
Tom - I agree, the rotations shouldn't be that hard, but when a smart and skilled team forces you to make them quickly things can break down long enough to create good opportunities. For example:
- If the puck is moved to the far (weak-side) corner AND the offensive team anticipates, their off side D wins the race by pinching (I see a lot of D playing wide - at the dots - for this). F3 is now actively involved in the low defensive battles might not be as skilled 1-on-1 as other F's who are frequently centers.
- When this (above) happens the net front can be uncovered for a brief moment if F3 pursues quickly. This creates an opportunity for a set play into the slot if your D or F are slow getting back to the front.
OR
- If F3 does NOT vacate the slot until another player fills it, then the offensive team regains possession and sets up a similar attack from the opposite corner. This can wear your team down in a 2nd period by making changes a challenge due to sustained possession.
Finally
- If the offensive team uses the net effectively as a shield they can also put a lot of pressure on your net-front D to make the right decision when to move post to post in front of the net and catch pursuing behind, effectively losing d-side positioning. This is especially true if you get an F covering the net-front after repeated rotations.
The biggest challenges we had was that our F2 & F3 were often hesitant to go into the corner and be first man in on the defensive battle when this happened. The rotation that had to happen along with this is: F3 engages in the corner => F2 drops into the slot until F1 (original defensive F) returns and switches with him => then F2 moves up and over to cover strong side point. This was a big change for our forwards who are not used to having to think and rotate so actively on defense. Unfortunately they are products of position specific roles (i.e. left wing covers left point, center helps out down low) rather than having roles for F1, 2 & 3 as they come into the DZ in any order. Our less-than-perfect passing and defense not accustomed to joining the rush on the breakout posed challenges too.
I'm always amazed at how quickly and fluidly NHL teams can make these decisions and rotations, and while I don't like to watch dump and chase hockey I think I better understand how some teams are really focused on getting set up below the goal line (which also opens up their points a lot!) I also notice a lot of players being good at establishing body position in front of the net in a way that allows them to be effective at maintaining puck possession for their team too. A big guy like Joe Thornton, for example, can have a good net-front presence but also be positioned to get to any soft chips behind the net first. And then he's deadly finding any gaps in defensive rotation with his passing or set up a cycle-type play all over again.
Watching it on TV is not the best way to observe all this unfortunately as the field of vision is often pretty narrow so you can't see what all 5 players are doing, so I'm envious of your season ticket holder status! Thanks for keeping the site going - Dave
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dave, most if not all NHL teams play F1-F2-F3 in their zone with the first forward back having low coverage. The attacking team usually cycles F1-F2-F3 as well so the low F and 2 D have to play a man to man on the strong side and the weak side F2 has net front coverage. Lots of goals are scored from the high slot when the net front D2 stays near the crease and moves out too late to get to the attacking F3 who gets a shot off before D2 has moved out close enough. So if you are playing the man to man 3 on 3 the swarming shouldn't be that difficult. It is simply the F3 who is covering the strong side point giving closer support down the boards to the battle along the boards. (F1 low, F2 mid slot, F3 puck side point as they funnel back into the zone.)
I can see where there can be problems on the rotation but if they react quickly and play on the D side with the stick on the puck and the players away from the puck stay with their man it should work ok if the teams are comparable. I think the problem is if the weak side D insists on covering net front even when the other team has a 3 man cycle. Then everyone is switching all of the time.
The modern game demands that all the players learn both the offensive and defensive skills.
Thoughts
Tom
Thanks Dave and Tom . Sounds like too many decisions for a young team to make in a volatile area lol. Does seem to have some merit and worth keeping in mind for the right team ?
--------------------------------------------
SMAC,
I think it is really important for the players to learn to be complete players. That is why I really like how the Finnish program focuses on all of the 4 game playing roles and the players learn the skills required for each role. i.e.
Offense:
Role One - playing with the puck - learn how to handle the puck, take passes, protect the puck etc. in all areas of the ice and the skating skills involved.
Role Two - learn how to support away from the puck depending on how close to the puck you are; D partner, on the wall, in the middle, far wing. How to breakout, move through the nzone, middle drive and cycle.
Defense:
Role Three - practice the skating skills of playing a defensive 1 on 1 and the positioning skills of dside, stick on the puck, stick in the passing lanes, angling, stick and body checking.
Role Four - skating skills for the forecheck, stick in the lanes, back checking, recognizing who to cover, man-you-puck positioning in the defensive zone.
Break the practice planning down into the 4 playing roles and we can develop complete players who are comfortable in all the game situations. i.e. loose puck, offense and defense. Then our players are ready to move onto the higher levels and have the skills to read the play and will be able to play the more fluid systems that hockey is moving toward.
The game is moving closer and closer to Total Hockey where players only have a 'home position' where they start on the face-off and then it is 1-2-3-4-5 according to their closeness to the puck and their net.
I saw a lot of this with the Red Bulls where Pierre Page has the D stay in on the cycle on their side of the ice if they were 1-2- or 3 on the rush and 4 and 5 cover the points. This demanded that the D have the offensive skills like F's and the F's have the defensive and skating skills of the D's. So now F's have to take defensive 1-1's in practice and D's have to practice all of the attack skills of forwards. This changes your practice plan so that the F's and D's are not always separated but learn all of the skills. Their HOME POSITION is decided by what they are best at because most of the time they will be in that position but will be comfortable rotating into any position.
Thoughts.
Tom
SMAC
Just watching the Capital-Leaf game and this is what I see Washington doing. On the pk teams have the first three in the corner and the extra F near the dot where D2 is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
T4 Swarming in the Defensive Zone
Key Point:
When the puck is loose in the defensive zone along the boards or in the corner the defenders collapse and outnumbe the attackers by swarming.
Description:
Defense Swarm when the offensive player is facing the boards.
Puck at the half-boards
- F1 the low forward plays the puck carrier.
- D1 cover support player.
- F3 slide down along boards to get loose puck.
- D2 support from near the dot.
- F3 has net and mid point coverage.
Puck in the corner.
- D1 play the puck carrier and F1 support and
- D2-F2-F3 have the same coverage.
Ottawa - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqgV1lQSqWA
Phoenix - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5K9wqoihk
Washington - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AGxbzYlNg0
U of Wisconsin - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxXavoQBT_M
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeh!! I just checked the site stats and we just passed 11 million hits.
Have always been a fan of the DZ Overload. Because I was a poor player when there was pressure on me and no place to go, the belief is that others may get jittery too. At tomorrow nights Womens Clinic we are going to utilize this concept. One if the main points will be to prevent the pressured player from being able to make a hard wrap around. If they have that option they are highly likely to take it and then we just wind up reverting back to 'home plate D'. The other thing to consider is having the weak side player move into a good break out position should we gain possession.
I would love to hear from others about their experience with DZ Swarming and plan to share what the clinic women's group felt about this.
13 posts :: Page 1 of 1
I am moving this topic from the drill section to here. Coaches feel free to contribute so we can help each other and share ideas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you watch the video of Detroit killing a penalty you see how they start sometime in the corner and outnumber the pp. If the puck is dumped in and the players back is to the play you see one on the puck, the F come down the boards into the corner, the D in front will go below the goal line with to play the supporting F there and the weak side forward is at the face-off dot.
I was watching Buffalo doing a similar thing on the 5-5. Four players were in the corner and one had net coverage. I have heard some commentators talk about this and am noticing it quite a bit in the NHL games.
Is there a coach out there who uses this defensive zone tactic and can explain it with some diagrams.
I would love to see it.
The tactics of the game are always changing. I remember talking about the Diamond 1-3-1 pplay years ago on this site. It was called the Finnish pplay then. When Juuso was coaching TPS his players didn't like the pp so Juhani told them to create one they liked and they came up with the 1-3-1 Diamond. After 25 years of being around it is now used by every NHL and elite league team. It seems like the same thing is happening with this dzone overloading.
'Enjoy the Game'